Hari Karam Singh
1 Mar 2014
Thanks Michelle. I’m not terribly familiar with the dot notation. I know n + tilde is like nya. It’s the others that I don’t know but form what Babaji has said, i reckon its more a matter of discovering them by making that “n” sound originate form the different vargas(?)
Jennifer Harford
1 Mar 2014
Michelle, Thank you for this. Would you be able to put the same thing up in Sanskrit? Babaji, if I understood you correctly on Wednesday, you found that people learn better working with the Sanskrit symbols of the syllables. (Is ‘symbols’ the right word?)
Hari Karam Singh
1 Mar 2014
I’d like to learn the devnagari alphabet as well as the panjabi/gurmukhi
Michelle Synnestvedt
2 Mar 2014
I did want to add that when you read Hindi or Sanskrit there is a “shorthand” you use… for instance in the word yoga ( योग)
you can recognize the- ya (य)from the silibants above and you can recognize the ga (ग)from ka varga..but the the vowel “o” is abbreviated ..instead of being written like this ओ it is written like this ो….that is just something to keep in the back of your mind……for now getting to know the forms of the goddesses is brilliant and I look at the form and say the sound locating it the space it resides in my mouth.
Scott Marmorstein
4 Mar 2014
I feel completely lost in this whole endeavor. I realize Babaji is our guide through a mysterious world. A world I can barely even recognize or appreciate at this point. He keeps pointing to things I don’t understand because I can’t see them or I see and hear them but don’t understand, and or I understand the things I can’t see or don’t hear. I find no confusion in this, I am just enjoying being lost on a ride I have no belt-buckle for. The point isn’t whether I can sink or swim if Babaji tips the boat and rocks me out of it.
The point is whether or not I can fly when he shoves me off the cliff. But I’m already free falling into something terribly familiar. When I was a little boy, about 9 years old I started learning to chant Shri Rudram from a very high Brahmin Priest. He did write a couple things down on the chalk board that I don’t remember. But what I do remember is that we repeated after him various sounds over and over again. He’d chant a small verse then we’d chant the same small verse. Then he’d chant it again and we’d chant it again. Then he’d chant a string of verses and laugh and we’d chant one verse. Then we’d shift back to chanting sounds again, guttural sounds, nasal sounds, chesty sounds, we’d chant higher and lower. Over and over again.
To this day I can still chant along with some of the Rudram as I hear it without looking at words. In fact, if I looked at the printed word I think I would be completely incapable of chanting anything at all from it. It would throw me off. Because what I’m reading isn’t quite what I’m hearing. And that’s how this course with Babaji feels to me.
Jennifer Harford
4 Mar 2014
Thank you, all. And Michelle you put up the print version of things because you were aware that we were looking for it. So this conversation has been an eye-opener for me, and I imagine, for several of us. I thank you, Michelle, because this whole conversation around text has been very helpful to me and you helped launch it
Hari Karam Singh and all…….you asked for the transliteration in “letters” for the syllabants and I have a key board that I can type these …so here they are:
a ā , i ī , u ū,
e (a+i) ai (a+ī) o (a+u) au (a+ū) aṁ ah: (aha)(visarga)
1. ka kha ga gha ṅ
2. cha chha ja jha ñ
3. ṭa ṭha ḍa ḍha ṇ
4. ta tha da dha na
5. pa pha ba bha ma
semi vowels =ya ra la va
silibants = ṡa ṣa sa ha
Baba Rampuri
MODERATOR
3 Mar 2014
Michelle’s post of the Sanskrit alphabet along with the comments perfectly illustrate some of my most important points about the assumptions we automatically bring into a conversation about Sacred Speech.
Look how effortlessly we retreat from articulation and its phonemes, i.e., syllables, into its representation in terms of notation and letters.
We privilege the printed.
The representation becomes the represented, and it informs us where and how to articulate. Authority passes from speech to print. We no longer discover articulation within speech, but idealize how articulation must exist in the mouth, and attempt to place it accordingly. To do this, we must study and memorize rather than explore and discover.
I’m not sure what Michelle means by “silibants” and “syllabants”, perhaps syllables, but it is also an example of mis-reading a representation of something. In this case – an english word “sibilant” which basically describes hissing, as in a snake’s speech (please note all the s’s), and is used by academic non-traditional Sanskrit phoneticists to describe “sa” “sha” and “sha” (sorry I don’t use diacritical marks on this computer) even when the traditionals use the term “ushman” or “heated syllables” which is discoverable in articulation, but only by logic in its representation or notation.
I don’t mean to be critical but analytical, as I am thrilled that Michelle posted this, as it gives us an opportunity to see up close what our ‘natural’ (or should I say – ‘conditioned’) tendencies and assumptions are, rather than only think of them in theoretical terms.
This is a very important insight when considering sacred speech, and as we move on, assumptions that are not identified will significantly restrict revelation.
Michelle Synnestvedt
3 Mar 2014
Baba Rampuri – Thank you again for your beautiful invitation to watch all the assumptions I bring to the table.
What I am struck with are two things:
1. SPACE: ‘Location’~ I am Western and these structures I see the world through are pretty set at this point..and on some level it can feel despairing, and yet when I step back a bit, I see it just is what it is…( as you said “you can take the boy out of the West but can’t take the West out of the boy”) AND..that’s why I am here…for more clarity on the facets of HOW I see the world.
2. TIME : The only way I could shift the perspective would be to live in India and spend as much time as I had to steep in the oral tradition. To hear the sounds from mouth to ear..per se. Grace has given me connection with you although limited and I hear the old phrase in my head..”you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” But what I also see through this conversation over the last 4 years is that the point is seeing the “old tricks” the dog has learned 🙂 And yet…I have a love of Sacred Speech…even through this contracted limited lens. It is this love that calls me back again and again, despite the obstacles. I am so grateful to have this precious conversation and so grateful for your clarity and willingness to patiently continue to point to my ignorance.
Kurt Bruder
3 Mar 2014
Jai Ma! I think I finally understand what you mean, Babaji. Maybe we need to learn about Sacred Speech the same way that we learned to speak in infancy (from the Latin, “not speaking”), by listening, trying out what we think we hear, getting corrected, trying again. I catch myself falling right back into the “bookish” approach so very easily.
Kurt Bruder
3 Mar 2014
Of course, one of the ironies here is that all of us were drawn to you through your book, or some other writing (even Facebook is a largely orthographic medium)–and, most recently, by your crowd-sourcing campaign for…a new book!
Baba Rampuri
MODERATOR
3 Mar 2014
Please keep in mind, I am not saying books are bad. I love books. I’m not saying writing is bad. It’s what we do. I’m asking you to identify assumptions that we make when considering another culture, or esoterica, or knowledge that may be considered by some to be universal. Let’s watch ourselves as we look at ourselves in the mirror and name the image we see as the “other.”
Kurt Bruder
3 Mar 2014
I’ve got it Babaji. Thank you for your patience.
Baba Rampuri
MODERATOR
3 Mar 2014
Let’s remember that vargas are descriptive rather than prescriptive. What is prescriptive is the means of articulation, the vocal apparatus, and the corresponding analogues, so understanding arises from performance rather than theory.
Hari Karam Singh, Once you are comfortable with an orderly articulation of the syllables, then it becomes very easy to just sit down and learn the notation. Jennifer Harford – The devanagari script as notation will become much more useful once you know the syllables well.
Scott Marmorstein
3 Mar 2014
Michelle, I think Babaji was pointing to your brilliance and not your ignorance, my dear. If you hadn’t “thrown your assumption” on the table there’d be nothing to talk about. You’re an excellent student even when you’re not ‘trying’. As Baba points out, books are great–they help point a certain kind of way. They just aren’t the way. A person on the other hand can point the way and be the way and move in the way and out of the way. It’s way cool eh?
Baba Rampuri
MODERATOR
4 Mar 2014
As Scott Marmorstein astutely pointed out, I am not even discussing ignorance, I am discussing assumptions, prejudices, and I’m not even saying they’re “bad” or “wrong.”
Identify them. Period. That’s all.
Once you identify and observe them, their behaviour cannot remain the same (some remote resemblance to Heisenberg’s theory). You don’t have to change anything, but you must learn to carefully observe… which is a difficult process, but maybe the only way to really know yourself. Ideology obstructs this. Superimposing even great ideas tends to obscure who you really are, but certainly may be comforting or even entertaining. Trying to consciously change yourself to an ideal, is fraught with great danger as well as obscurity. The more aware you are of who you are (not theoretical), the more a transformation will take place on its own.
Jennifer Harford
4 Mar 2014
I find that I can feel the difference between the retroflex “Ta” and the teeth “Ta,” but I cannot hear the difference. I was wondering if this were the same for anyone else.
Jennifer Harford
4 Mar 2014
By “feel,” I mean I am aware of location and placement of my tongue.
Rick Bonin
4 Mar 2014
I’m having trouble hearing the difference in more than just those syllables. Perhaps it’s a function some minor hearing loss or perhaps it’s a function of where I live and the language I speak, perhaps like the problem far Eastern speakers have with the letter “L”.
Baba Rampuri
MODERATOR
4 Mar 2014
I wouldn’t be concerned about not hearing the syllables properly at this point. You are focusing too much on the sound of the syllables rather than the spaces they occupy in your mouth. The more familiar you are with the spaces the more you will automatically hear them better.
We’re more concerned with speech as processes within certain spaces in your mouth at this point. Think of speech as operations instead of sound at this point. This is why I made the distinction between speech and sound in the beginning. I’m not teaching you these syllables so you can speak Sanskrit, but so you can relate to speech in a different way than you are used to, so you can understand that there are other categories of speech. And not theoretically! Practically.
So you can actually experience the operations, rather than speculating or memorising, or just plain believing. This will give you your first keys to move from “ordinary,” unconscious speech to its more subtle, powerful, and esoteric applications. Once you have some basic keys, some handles, there is a lot of work you will be able to do independently.
Rick Bonin
4 Mar 2014
Thanks for the clarification. You’ve given me a handle on how to better approach this experience and at the same time clarified why the the chart of the syllables is not particularly helpful.
Baba Rampuri
MODERATOR
4 Mar 2014
Scott Marmorstein – Books and reading are great. There are great, sublime books out there. You are an author, it’s a significant means for you to explore the world and consciousness, articulate what you feel and discover, and even search for truth. The medium of writing rather than speaking lends itself very well and effectively in many areas. I am interested what this medium does and how it differs from other mediums, such as speech, itself.
I am certainly not condemning writing by any stretch of the imagination. I am looking for prejudices arising out of how we “privilege” print, which, I am claiming, is particular to a few hundred years of European culture.
These “prejudices” create blinders when considering culture that does NOT privilege print, and therefore limits the possibilities of some understanding. The attention I draw to this is strategic, not moral.
Jennifer Harford
5 Mar 2014
Babaji,
I was listening to Masterclass 6, and toward the end, you started to go over the Ka varga, which I think of as a throat varga. And I think maybe you missed one syllable along the varga, because you articulated three (most condensed Ka, aspirated Ka (with what I call the shakti “a” ), the expanded, voiced, warmer, Ga, and then you referred to the 5th nasal element with what I would spell as Arna. The nasal one seems to be two syllables to me, rather than just one. So that confused me. What also confused me was that you referred to 5 elements, and were there supposed to be 5 syllables in this varga to match all five elements? I counted only 4.
Thank you, very much, as always.
Michelle Synnestvedt
5 Mar 2014
Jennifer Harford from what I hear from Babaji, the 5 elements refer to the 5 vargas.( so the ka varga is earth because the tongue points to the earth, the cha varga is water,because the tongue points to the salivary glands, the ṭa varga is fire, because the tip of the tongue points upward ( like a flame), and if you read my post above I asked for clarification on the air and space..ta and pa)
In each varga there are 5 kinds of articulation.
ie: in Ka varga, there is simple striking= ka
then the simple strike is aspirated= kha
then ka is expanded= ga ,
then it is expanded with aspiration = gha,
and finally ka is voiced through the nose- nasal=ṅ
Jennifer Harford
5 Mar 2014
Thanks! I hadn’t heard the “ga” and then the “gha” in the Masterclass.
5 Mar 2014
Religious ?
Dear Babaji,
I have so many questions, and I don’t want to take us off point, or off of the wonderful task of discovering speech together. Yet I am aware that you ask us to bring up our confusions. I will assume that you will pick what is important to answer, and what isn’t. And perhaps it is because I am confused and that I am in murky territory in my own mind, that I have trouble spelling out what it is I am confused about. But I will try.
It seems to me that you avoid things that sound a lot like idealology or theology, or even things that have religious overtones. But maybe I am wrong about religion? And it might be worthwhile to mention that I went to a Catholic school from nursery school to 12th grade, so religion was a part of my life before I could read or add 1 + 1. I am not a practicing Catholic, but it remains very strongly a part of me. I bring this up only to confess that with my background I tend to see religion everywhere.
Anyway, as I was listening to the beginning of Masterclass 6, you said, and it was poetic the phrase you used to introduce Shiva, “The parable of Shiva, who, for our purposes is the Lord of Consciousness, and we can think of as pure unmoving, unmanifested consciousness itself.” And when I hear things like that, or a phrase like “Goddess willing,” I cannot help but think, “How is this not religious?”
When I hear words like Gods, goddesses, deities and devotees, I tend to think, “religion.” But maybe I have it wrong.
I am worried that this could very much side-track the class. I am perfectly happy to work on the operation of speech as best as I can, and wait for issues like this to resolve themselves or be resolved later….
Thank you, Babaji, ever so much, for your patience with me.
Scott Marmorstein
5 Mar 2014
Hi Jennifer Harford I know you directed this question to Babaji. However, may I share an observation? I don’t wish in any way to sound presumptuous at all so will attempt here to just be straight about this.
Here’s what I see Babaji doing and telling us again and again.
Babaji of course doesn’t care if we’re religious or ideological or theoretical or anything else. That’s not his focus as he keeps pointing out. He’s a traditionalist himself. He’s not selling us on his point of view–at all. I think he wants us to BE whatever we already are, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, “Spiritual” or whatever else. He doesn’t want us to try and change ourselves because that’s not at all what this Masterclass seems to be about to my mind.
I believe that what Babaji is attempting to do is point us backwards and into ourselves beyond our limited identities and ideas and understandings and to appreciate the way our individuality has already unfolded and currently is. However, in order to accomplish this, I think he is trying to give us some different tools. Primarily the tools of observation are the tools he’s handing to us. All he wants us to do is simplylook at what we say and try to find viscerally in our bodies and in our lives the things that we have otherwise seen on paper for so long.
All of this is just an exercise. I think of it as somewhat of an experiment. Now, let me just say Babaji may very well say I’m somewhat correct and somewhat incorrect and point out where I veered from his vision for this thing.
At the same time this Masterclass helps to raise the level of conversations we normally have with those we are now having with each other. So he’s not sitting there hoping you’ll stop being Catholic inside, or wishing Michelle would stop being an intellectual, or for Kurt to quit playing music, or for any of us to even necessarily get smarter or more enlightened or closer to God or Goddess. I think (and I’m really just throwing out my assumptions on the table here) that all Babaji wants us to do is go along for the ride, to discover in our own mouths what Speech is and is capable of doing through us from a whole other perspective that we haven’t thought of yet.
We asked him to help us understand where he is coming from. So he gives us context and provides a forum for us to meet in and ultimately have the Darshan of its aim, which is for us to just be in the flow of whatever is happening.
Also I just wanted to add…this first bit about Speech that we’ve covered really is just the first little bit and that perhaps there’s a lot more land to cover and be shown around in. I hope this is clear. This is just my perspective from here and if I am wrong (and on some points I probably am) may Babaji express and point out so that we can all move along.
I will say that in writing this I have gotten much clearer about why we’re all here doing this. It’s not to change who we are at all. But to see who we are, really see it and maybe, if we’re lucky, some part of us that doesn’t work well for our own lives will change on its own.
Jennifer Harford
5 Mar 2014
Thank you, Scott.
For the record, I don’t think even for a minute that Babaji is trying to convert me, take me into a religion, or take me out of a religion. I am noticing wording that I would normally associate with religious endeavors (sacred, goddess, deity, etc…), and wondering about them. I agree with all your points. I just wonder about some wording.
Jennifer
Hari Karam Singh
6 Mar 2014
It’s funny, I come from an atheist background and when I hear words like “deites, goddesses, Lord of Consciousness”, I tend to think science 🙂
A teacher of mine sometimes says “Religion = to realise one’s own origin”. Like, “Know thyself”. My concept of things such as “worship”, “prayer”, “devotion” is that they are useful tools to achieve that goal based on a much broader understanding of reality than we entertain in modern academic science.
The difference for me now compared to my earlier self is that I now include those tools in my definition of “science”.
Michelle Synnestvedt
5 Mar 2014
Baba Rampuri, after listening to the last class ( thank you ) I had a few questions and thoughts.
first, I understood when you were describing the first 3 vargas and how they relate to the element earth water and fire because where the tongue is pointing to..but I was lost when it came to the 4th varga of teeth..and how processing or chewing food has to do with air? and also how ‘Pa varga’ connects us to space through (visarga- and the going forth into manifestation?) Could you clarify these two vargas and the elements they point to?
secondly, when I heard your story about how Panini was gifted the revelation of SPEECH through Shivas damaru and then you told us what he heard( Mahesvara Sutra) two things happened.
1. I kept listening to you say it over and over and over again. Not just because I was trying to hear you, but because it was like a tickle of a huge Aha. First I was blown away at the astounding beauty and creativity of the whole darshan, and the oral tradition. Shiva didn’t give panini a book to go study..(hahaha) he played his drum. And this codex for the entire Universe came out. This codex of the little mothers. And then Panini wrote 4000 sutras? 4000 more codes? My mind is completely blown.
2. Now I want to have darshan/ revelation on the 4000 sutras. it’s as if you handed me this precious key to this magnificent Universe that I may never be able to open.
Jennifer Harford
5 Mar 2014
Healing
Babaji,
I am putting so much up here…. I just wanted to be sure to thank you. I am experiencing great benefits from the classes that we have so far. I am finding a change within myself. I am able to be myself more easily, if that makes any sense. As a result, it is easier to sit in my own skin. And this makes it easier for me to be with others.
Wishing you and everyone in this class all good blessings.
Jennifer
Jan Baggerud Larsen
#Basel
I just listened to MasterClass 8 and it was very helpful. The first half hour I was smiling and feeling very joyous. I had several aha moments where I suddenly felt I could experience and understand much more about the vocal geography and I could relate this to Babaji’s speech at the Basel Conference which still feels very magical to me.
But then suddenly a lot of my believed understanding fell apart when I understood that I still want to and believe that I can map the operations directly to “meaning” or “effect”. In my mind I WANT to superimpose the operations. Still seeing the map as the treasure. But I still feel that the treasure/magic is there somewhere and I see that it is not the map._
Jan Baggerud Larsen
7 Mar 2014
I am reading Peter Pannke’s book “Singers Die Twice: A Journey to the Land of Dhrupad” now. It is fascinating and the combination of this and Babaji’s book feels just perfect. Before I joined the Master Class I was mainly interested in chanting and not so much traditional Indian music but this is changing. Thank you Peter and Babaji.
