Tantra Discussion from “What is Tantra?”

Baba RampuriTantra Discussion from “What is Tantra?”

The comment from Australia is a good example of the point of my yesterday’s blog.

I’m sure there is wonderful tantra in Australia, and people gaining many experiences from it, and perhaps helping people realize a non-dual nature of existence. And I’m sure there are very well thought out techniques, schools of thought, and practices as well. I think its great, certainly better than hanging out in a pub. Same in America.

I just wonder what it has to do with a Tantric Tradition from India that has been handed down guru to disciple for 1000’s of years. Maybe I was a slow learner and there might be enhanced learning aids today, but it took me probably 20 of my 40 years in an esoteric lineage in India, AFTER I had learned Hindi and Sanskrit, to come to any understanding of Tantra, notwithstanding the slogans and cliches.

Finding a tantric guru is easy, there must be a hundred pages or more on Google; finding a lineage with the goods is a different story, as anyone who has spent time in India involved with this would tell you. And finding a lineage in which English is spoken can turn out to be a long quest. Acceptance in an esoteric tradition anywhere is not a given, contrary to popular culture. Lots of cash always helps, but even a true seeker of knowledge requires a great deal of perseverance to be accepted in elite circles, which is the nature of tantric tradition.

The fact of the matter is that regardless of claims of independence or autonomy, Tantra comes from India, is an Indian thing, even an Indian word. Its appearance in Australia and the West in popular culture was by means of representation. Mainly books, at best written by well educated academics who translated collected texts with no exposure to the context of their authors, at worst written by people with little understanding of Indian Culture, using sex as a marketing tool for either their product, service, or ideology.

There are some quite wonderful books out there written by some wonderful people, Mark Dykowsky, David Frawley, and several others. Their books are well informed, well written, and enlightening. But reading them, studying them, believing in them has nothing to do with becoming a tantric.

A Speech of function, of operation, of connection with a largely unseen world (which is the nature of Tantric Speech) is translated into a Speech of ideas and concepts in competition with each other. Not Hindi to English, or anything quite so simple.
We may be entertained and enlightened by the idea-generating power of the information, but with a lack of the context a tradition provides, the ideas generated have no connection with the thing itself. Our current discourse is largely defined by a fierce competition among ideas, beliefs, narratives, and brands, and our Speech is likewise the means by which this happens. The Tantric doesn’t have to believe in anything except maybe that his lineage is legitimate.

Let’s talk about the primacy of the body. In a number of India’s Wisdom Traditions that have, of course, spilled into Indian culture, we understand the human body to be around for a maximum of 100 years, and that towards the end of its existence, it often becomes troublesome. And we service it well as our home during this kind of existence. We look to take advantage of our consciousness having density, the corporeality of human existence. But we also understand it is a necessary limitation of our true nature which is beyond duality. We think of liberation as the final goal of human life, and we live our life mindful of that ultimate goal.

I’ll be blunt. The West is obsessed with physical culture, and has superimposed a physical culture on top of yoga. We want yoga teachers who work out with weights, not who will teach us the secrets of our inner being. We want to make Tantra physical culture as well, it’s much easier that way, and much more fun… I guess.

14 Comments

  1. Well spoken, dear Rampuri, well spoken.
    Over here in “the west” everyone acts like this, even our own traditions showing the way out of the dual thinking are treated as business, not as path of experiance. As the following many promotions sound like:

    Make yourself successful and healthy.
    The consumer conveniant spiritual effect!
    Buy it now – nice price offer:
    Multipack new Yogatantrashamanic journey to the centre of all wisdom! Climb the mountain of knowledge of thousands of years in one weekend – only $/€ 1500.- per person!
    All inclusive!

    The religous like illusion of reality focused by money. What we expect? It must end up that way and seems funny to me too.

    Most of the right paths spread from the wrong ones. Thats a hopeful thought i guess.

    Remember your post about the Beatles and their Guru? Rythems have some “magnetic” propertys, specially if they are relatet at the same region of significance. It doesnt matter, what we believe to.

    Love and force from the german woods
    Beat

  2. I’d just like to say that I feel you’ve made an awful lot of sweeping generalisations. If you think “real Tantra” can not find its way to Australia, or that a white person could genuinely be involved in a “good” Tantrik lineage, then I have to question your point of view.

    When I wrote about primacy of the body, I was not talking about having toned abs or a “yoga butt”, but the experience of intimacy with our own self. Of being inclusive of our physical self in the concept of non-dualism without the need to transcend or deny it.

    That was all. Sorry that you misunderstood me.

  3. Dear Svasti,

    Thank you. I’m sure “real” tantra and “good” tantrik lineages can find their way to Australia.

    Why don’t you tell us about yours?

    And please explain what you mean when you say “experience of intimacy with our own self” in the context of primacy of the body. It could mean so many different things – what do you mean specifically.

    I am speaking only in reference to Tantric Tradition in India when I speak about Tantra.

    I am very interested in what you have to say.

    OM NAMO NARAYAN !!

    Baba

    1. Dear Baba,

      Please accept my humble obeisances.

      I have been learning from this school:

      http://www.esotericteachingcommunity.org/

      It is known as the Madhva-Gauḍīya-sampradāya.

      Quote:
      […] We have to accept Kṛṣṇa through the disciplic succession. There are four sampradāyas, disciplic successions. One comes from Lord Brahmā (the Brahma-sampradāya), and another comes from Lakṣmī, the goddess of fortune, (the Śrī-sampradāya). There are also the Kumāra-sampradāya and the Rudra-sampradāya. At the present moment, the Brahmā sampradāya is represented by the Madhva-sampradāya, and we belong to the Madhva-Gauḍīya-sampradāya. Our original sampradāya stems from Madhvācārya. In that sampradāya there was Mādhavendra Purī, and Mādhavendra Purī’s disciple was Śrī Īśvara Purī. Śrī Īśvara Purī’s disciple was Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Thus we are coming in the disciplic succession from Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and therefore our sampradāya is called the Madhva-Gauḍīya-sampradāya. It is not that we have manufactured a sampradāya; rather, our sampradāya stems from Lord Brahmā. […] We have to accept the philosophy as it was contemplated by Lord Brahmā, Nārada, Madhvācārya, Mādhavendra Purī and Īśvara Purī. These great ācāryas are beyond the imperfections of so-called scholars. Mundane scientists and philosophers use the words “perhaps” and “maybe” because they cannot arrive at a proper conclusion. They are simply speculating, and mental speculation cannot be perfect. […]

      -Teachings of Lord Kapila, the Son of Devahūti. 13.41

      EndQuote

      I just wanted to say that I dont really know what you mean by ‘tantric guru’? From what I understand about tantra is, that the word ‘tantra’ means ‘instruction’. There are thousands of tantras, in different modes of material nature. Our school studies a book called the Nectar of Devotion and it contains excerpts of tantras in the mode of goodness, also known as Vaisnava tantras. Other tantras in the mode of ignorance contain strange black-magic rituals that aim at some impersonal realization of the absolute or mystic power.

      The tantras are varied in nature, and I am not sure what you mean by ‘tantric guru’. What do you mean by this? I do not want to speculate.

      I do not know what a tantric guru is, why one would approach one or the benefit one could obtain…

      Please illuminate my ignorace.

      love,
      peter

      1. Dear Peter,

        Thank you for your comments.

        Actually, what I meant by Tantric Guru was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as I went on to say there are probably a 100 pages on Google to find one.

        But what I mean is this: the whole idea of finding a guru these days has become a matter of shopping and consumption, and the means is through marketing and the associated slogans and jingles.

        There are fewer questions asked about how a guru finds a disciple. Marketing and consumption don't work here. If the guru finds an unworthy disciple or no disciple at all, a lineage of knowledge comes to an end, another species extinct.

        Rightly so, some of us strive to preserve animal and plant species on the verge of extinction largely because of our greed and consumption. But few realize that our Speech of Consumption is anti-matter when it comes to Lineages of Knowledge.

        OM NAMO NARAYAN !!

        Baba

  4. Namaste Baba,
    Om Namo Narayan.

    You say less questions are asked about how the guru finds the disciple? Who chooses? Does the guru choose the diciple? Does the diciple choose the guru? Is the guru specifically looking for disciples worthy of carrying on the lineage?

    Thank you for any response you feel inspired to give.
    Pranams at the feet of the blue-eyed yogi,
    Shivani

    1. Thank you, Shivani. I refer to the what is traditional within my lineages and within the Sannyasi tradition of India. The guru chooses the disciple. The disciple may compel the guru to choose that person by love, devotion, service, spiritual commitment, etc., but when the potential disciple makes the request for discipleship, the guru makes the choice. There is no recruiting. If anything, discouragement is offered to the potential disciple, as the path is not the ordinary path of the world. The guru's primary concern is that the disciple is in some way qualified to maintain and hopefully continue the lineage. Today, we often think of gurus having 1000's of disciples. But this has rarely ever been the case. The norm is a few disciples. Some babas like to know there are 5 disciples by the time his body perishes, so that they may bear his body to its internment in earth or water (never fire). It's not just information that's passed down, but knowledge which requires things like personality, attitudes, and other attributes the guru passes on.

  5. Thank you Babaji, for your reply. Om namah shivaya! Thank you for giving us all the blessing of people able to communicate you through internet. It is so accessible! I appreciation your comments. I have one more question, if you don't mind. I watched the video you have posted online in which you show the intiation of your two disciples, from Denmark I believe it was? Forgive me if I have the location wrong. the Anyhoo, there is a part in the video when you ask if the disciple-to-be is fully ready to make the leap, and the response is yes. You then say, no one is every ready. I am wondering if you can elaborate on that a bit?
    When you took the leap, did you feel a bit of hesitation or nervousness but you lept anyway? Or was there no hesitation what so ever? Once again, I ask your forgiveness, if this particular question was already answered in your book. I love your book, but I did read it a few years ago and do not fully recall your words.
    Oh yes and one more question…why is the Guru's body not put into fire?

    Pranams and thank you!
    Shivani

    1. When one commits to something so serious, of course one should consider very carefully. There is no turning back.
      Sannyasis are not cremated, because we already make the cremation in the virja havan, when we have sannyas initiation.

  6. dear guru ji mere ko mere padosi nein mujhper tantrik kriya kar rakhi hai jisse meri ankhoh mein aurat ki shakal dhekti hai please help me 09997545756

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