Conversation continues on May 28, 2015:
“Let’s not fall for the mythology that science is “supposed to” equal truth or is even supposed to seek Truth, any more than history is an account of what actually happened.
These are sophisticated games with a whole set of strict rules that one must accept in order to play those games. There is a difference between making a poor move within that game, and not playing by the rules.
In our seeking Truth, we are not playing by the rules, and so are not part of that game, and as such are pretty much ignored by the game, even scorned. So, I would say, that depending on the side of that line one is standing one will determine Dawkins’ validity or lack thereof.”
John Weddepohl Easy to deny the existence of creator – but not easy to deny ones own existence. Today’s contemporary thinkers i.e Dawkins, Hawking, etc. find it easy to deny the existence of a creator or higher power. This is easy, but ask them to deny their own existence, when questioning ones existence the only question that really matters is the question of the questioner.
Todd Daniels Nice one.
Todd Daniels spiritual ego or materialism is worse then just having a normal ego.. I know more than some but less than many. I am cool with that
Pankaj Seth Dawkins et al are clearing out monotheism, but cannot approach the Dharma in that fashion. The first one is a good job being done.
Todd Daniels were they? or are you being defensive?
Pankaj Seth Dawkins’ love of evolution is sound, but he does not understand that evolution being based upon mutations means that it is based upon quantum events, meaning evolution is not ‘random’ but informed by wholeness, interdependence!!! Wait till they find out! LOL
Todd Daniels well, i do not know so I will not say I do.
Todd Daniels the tree seems to tell me more than anything else
Baba Rampuri Pankaj – Let’s not fall for the mythology that science is “supposed to” equal truth or is even supposed to seek Truth, any more than history is an account of what actually happened. These are sophisticated games with a whole set of strict rules that one must accept in order to play those games. There is a difference between making a poor move within that game, and not playing by the rules. In our seeking Truth, we are not playing by the rules, and so are not part of that game, and as such are pretty much ignored by the game, even scorned. So, I would say, that depending on the side of that line one is standing one will determine Dawkins’ validity or lack thereof.
Todd Daniels thanks si
Pankaj Seth I agree with you points about science and history, but those approaches are being seen as to their limits. Science is moving towards acknowledging wholeness and giving up on the Christian project to find God, which they call the big bang. Such critiques are current in Science. There is hopelessness in finding things out this way in Science. On the other hand, Lisa Miller’s article in Newsweek is what’s happening too… http://www.adishakti.org/…/we_are_all_hindus_now_by…
EDITOR’S CHOICE: “We Are All Hindus Now”- By Lisa Miller |…
ADISHAKTI.ORG|BY JAGBIR SINGH
Pankaj Seth Even evolution, being based upon mutations (read, quantum events) means that evolution is not ‘random’ but informed by wholeness. The approach called science is moving away from the Christian project and beginning to think like the Dharma.
John Weddepohl because of the changing nature of the universe scientists will thankfully be kept busy for an eternity and never figure it out. this at least is a blessing and their prasad.
Pankaj Seth John, they are seeing that now, and therefore moving towards what I would call ‘scientific mysticism’.
Todd Daniels we think we know,,, so we do not know
Todd Daniels I will be of the thought that I know nothing,, hence the mystery
Pankaj Seth Consider this… Our best ‘physical theory’ (QM) contains an element called ‘freedom of choice’… LOL
John Weddepohl as long as these ‘thinkers’ do not stand in the way of understanding lets just leave them where they are happily playing away. like a child in a playpen playing with a ball not realising the switch on the ball blows the whole planet.
Pankaj Seth Sure, but its is a better situation than that… they are looking at India, talking with the Dalai Lama etc, getting punked by the philosophers of science who are reading the Upanishads.
Todd Daniels blah , blee , blah , bloh.. why do we need this to live? I learned this shit to eventually give up this shit….
Baba Rampuri John Weddepohl you are right. “Understanding,” as you put it, is something not taken lightly by “these thinkers,” and this “understanding” as we understand it, is not as popular with others as it may be with us, in fact, most believe it should just go away. It just clogs up industrial production and confuses people (sic).
Pankaj Seth It is science which has destroyed monotheism’s standing… not a little job to have done.
Todd Daniels and the problem is?
Baba Rampuri It’s bigger than that. The European Enlightenment changed the paradigm, turned it upside down, and made sure the connection with science was political, not religious.
Pankaj Seth The enlightenment’s motto was the Kantian “Dare to Know” and it destroyed faith based stuff… that’s ok.
Pankaj Seth The church is in tatters. People are finally free in the West after 1500 years, and they are interested in “Yoga”. A big change, very messy, but the right direction.
Vik Zutshi An example of scientific mysticism – http://m.unknowncountry.com/…/quantum-physicist…
News from the Edge | Quantum Physicist: Consciousness Arises…
Baba Rampuri That’s far too reductionist for me.
Baba Rampuri People are not free in the West.
Baba Rampuri They just changed the definition of freedom.
Todd Daniels what is free?
John Weddepohl Vik I saw this the other day and had to laugh – rocket science – duh
Todd Daniels huge question.
Pankaj Seth compared to Christian days, they are absolutely free. Now they have trapped themselves in materialism in the process, but that too is changing, but its messy.
Todd Daniels its happened in hinduism too…lets not sugar coat anything here
Baba Rampuri According to propaganda, yes. I don’t believe that propaganda, myself, just can’t. Wish I could, it would make some things easier.
Todd Daniels everything corrupts, everything. nothing is better or worse..accept it
Pankaj Seth The thing is that several elements are in place… monotheism’s destruction is immanent. Science, the arbiter of ‘truth’ in this era is showing non-materialism as ‘truth’.
Baba Rampuri My last comment was to P’s comment.
Let’s examine the narratives that we were force fed. We seem to accept them without question or real analysis. History and Truth are not the same thing. And if you want to know what really happened (if that even exists) you can’t rely on History, because its nature of narrative serving power. This is basic stuff.
Baba Rampuri What is called the “Dark Ages” in Europe, for example, was perhaps Europe’s most enlightened times.
Baba Rampuri Pankaj – in place for WHAT??
Todd Daniels i keep referring to the idea of paradox… its something to think about
Pankaj Seth For what? Depends on what we do now.
Pankaj Seth Elements are in place in the West which are anti-monotheism but pro-Dharma.
Baba Rampuri In you previous comment you said several elements were in place. In place for what?
Todd Daniels but do what we know or think we know mean anything?
Pankaj Seth Elements which take us towards a Dharmic worldview. What is the Dharmic worldview for?
Todd Daniels Why do we have to have a dharmic world view?
Baba Rampuri So you’re agreeing with this good guy bad guy narrative of ideologies squaring off?
Baba Rampuri Dharma has a world view and provides agency to those who accept it?
Pankaj Seth Christian worldview is bad guy stuff, yes.
Baba Rampuri What’s the difference between that and monotheism? Is it only about counting Gods?
Todd Daniels so does christianity
Pankaj Seth if you believe that the Dharma is about polytheism, but its not of course. That’s a false choice.
Baba Rampuri So you accept that narrative.
Baba Rampuri Then why mention monotheism?
Baba Rampuri Why mention any theism?
Todd Daniels bad guy stuff, good guy stuff… its all seperation. who is right who is wrong… pure horseshit
Todd Daniels fuck it all…. sorry
Baba Rampuri Are we comparing things within a single category?
Pankaj Seth Certain worldview are predatory, Christianity and Islam are proven themselves to be so.
Todd Daniels why is polytheism a false choice.. who made the rules
Baba Rampuri Pankaj, that may very well be true, but the bigger picture is that a narrative is framed and you are addressing that narrative as if that is really the action, to the exclusion of other action, which the stage performer distracts you from seeing. These are fundamentalist narratives, my friend, and they can be used with equal ease by all sides in a conflict that is not the real conflict.
Baba Rampuri Todd, Pankaj is absolutely correct in calling it a false choice. I was being provocative. On purpose.
Pankaj Seth Certain worldviews are predatory, Christianity and Islam have proven themselves to be so. I note that it is the freedom to think, not allowed by these worldviews, but allowed by science, which has resulted in their demise. I think that’s a good thing that science has arisen, and these two have fallen. Next, Science itself is moving away from chasing big bangs and towards a Dharmic worldview. I think that’s good.
Todd Daniels I know Baba, that I can respect.. Its a good lesson.
Pankaj Seth And we can help that direction that science is taking. We have the IMPLICATIONS of the reality map which science is now starting to embrace.
Todd Daniels await and see
Pankaj Seth We have not been in this good a position for a long time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Baba Rampuri You’re being overly reductionist about Christianity & Islam and by doing so you discredit yourself in arguments about Sanatan Dharma. The Anglo-American world view is demonstrably very predatory, science is predatory, theres a lot of things which are predatory – which speaks to me of power relations.
Todd Daniels predatory or do they have a basis in violence?
Baba Rampuri Pankaj – Who is WE? Am I included, for example?
Pankaj Seth Those that value freedom of choice are included. those that wish to control others are not included.
Baba Rampuri And you believe in “freedom of choice?”
Todd Daniels but is any ideology a freedom of choice?
Vik Zutshi I keep coming back to Babaji’s earlier statement – ‘Ideology is for suckers’. Is an intellectual battle on Dharma really worth fighting? Which begs the question, is Babaji also fighting some kind of battle? If so, who is your opponent?
Pankaj Seth Its a relative measure… compared to the times when monotheisms ruled, there is freedom of choice.
Todd Daniels our own history sets the tone of how we perceive anything
Todd Daniels freedom of choice would mean not having any content of mind that allows you to judge..
Pankaj Seth I value pluralism, so I prefer Dharma over Religions. And am glad at their demise.
Todd Daniels it can be one and the same
Baba Rampuri We’re looking at the world through different windows. I see us, we, the human race on the edge of the precipice, bent on our own destruction which may be sooner than we think. The faculty of thought has been colonized in the West, and predatory forces are working overtime to make sure no pockets of resistance remain anywhere on Earth.
Pankaj Seth Todd, that is abstract stuff… I am talking about relative measure of such.
Pankaj Seth Baba, do you have a plan?
Baba Rampuri Yes.
Pankaj Seth Please tell.
Todd Daniels hope so
Baba Rampuri I don’t have enough bells and whistles to be able to do it on a Facebook thread, wish I did.
Todd Daniels makes sense
Pankaj Seth Surely some hint is possible, no?
Todd Daniels and I am not being abstract, i am being honest
Todd Daniels on that note… it was a pleasure and i must sleep. thanks for the chat
Baba Rampuri A hint? Start paying closer attention. There’s a man on the stage attracting your attention with “spectacle” with one hand, a spectacle that so grabs your attention, you don’t notice that he’s picking your pocket with the other. Now penniless, you admit to yourself that the show was worth it.
Vik Zutshi I don’t see it in those apocalyptic terms Babaji. I don’t see us on the edge of a precipice. It’s just another phase, like many that have gone before it..
Vik Zutshi Life always finds a way..
Pankaj Seth Part of the plan should be to promote Ayurveda, Dharmic teachings in the context of pluralism, which is already happening. Lisa Miller’s article is good news. I see many useful things happening, but Baba, you seem to be saying that destruction is almost immanent. But even if is, still these things can be, should be done.
Baba Rampuri Vik Zutshi just because that’s what I see in my crystal ball doesn’t mean I’m not an optimist. I can’t explain why I am, it’s just one of those ironies of life I guess. When the Red Armies and other Allied forces were moving in for the kill on Vienna and Berlin at the end of WWII, there was a famous last exchange of cables between the two governments. Vienna said the situation was “desperate but not catastrophic,” while Berlin answered that the situation there was “catastrophic but not desperate.”
Pankaj Seth Jai Sri Bhairav!!!
John Weddepohl and the elephant in the room is?
Vik Zutshi I don’t think it’s either catastrophic or desperate.
Pankaj Seth Eco-disaster of a very large scale is a possibility, unless humans change their relationship to the rest of nature. For this, I can hardly think of anything better than forwarding the Ramayana as a global story.
Pankaj Seth When millions upon millions associate themselves with the term ‘Yoga’, they are also opening themselves to hearing this story.
Gideon Enz Pankaj & Vik, eco-disaster is not a possibility, it is a reality. And the time/space we inhabit is not like any other in our history, at least none that we know of. And as Baba Rampuri said, there is a very real precipice that we are going over. But the upside is that we may, in the next decades or centuries of pressure (we respond well to pressure, but usually only as a last resort), finally collectively push to evolve, which will be a big step from the private personal evolution of yoga. We may… but the cost is very great.
Eric Seaton Baba, The Dark Ages in europe were the most enlightened ? Fasicanting , something to do with Paracelus and Agrippa ?
Baba Rampuri Paracelsus & Agrippa were at the end of this. Curiously Paracelsus found himself playing a role not completely dissimilar to Vivekananda, in which in his efforts to withstand the Roman Church, he encouraged a movement from Latin to the vernacular languages. As many found out before him, don’t fool around with Speech as Speech ultimately controls the flow of power. It’s amazing to see how much of the power struggles in greater Europe of the last 1200 years are fuelled by the conflict of two alphabets – the Roman and Cyrillic.
Eric Seaton Fascinating , So are you saying, you shouldn’t try to have mass people switch languages, but rather change the aproach to Speech itself? Also who / what would you say was a major role in the peak of enlightenment during the dark ages?
Baba Rampuri I’m not prescriptive. You should know that by now.
Baba Rampuri We’re just looking, not changing things around.
Baba Rampuri We’ll talk about that in the conversation on Hermeticism.
Eric Seaton mm fer sure. whats the basic descriptive difference between roman and Cyrillic?
Eric Seaton I read it again and now I see you were saying something simpler than I thought. Pranams
Eric Seaton When I was in Europe, I was amazed how many places had hermetic symbols. There everywhere there
Eric Seaton I mean, in some places very out in the open, and then, off the side, hidden, coming down some unknown building, an entire alchemical painting of symbols.
Eric Seaton Also, I thought Ramakrishna was a well known miser? Didn’t he have a thing for young boys? Or is that rubbish, or did Vivekananda break off from him?
Jan Baggerud Larsen Sorry about being off topic but imagine Babaji Baba Rampuri working as a western medical doctor:
Patient: “What about my prescription?”
Doctor Rampuri: “I’m not prescriptive. You should know that by now”
Pankaj Seth Paracelsus was likely working off Ayurveda in his role as physician, working with 3 constitutional types, salt, sulfur and mercury… kapha, pitta, vata.
Todd Daniels Wow, this thread is just blowing my mind. Thanks everyone!